LME009 – The Image of Leadership – Interview with Sylvie di Giusto

Today we talk about the image of leadership. How can you develop your professional imprint and become the leader that you deserve to be? I invited the expert on this topic for an interview: Sylvie di Giusto

Image of Leadership: The first seconds count.

During the fist few seconds when others first see you, they judge you. Whether it’s at a meeting, on the job, or at an interview.

The people may have some prior knowledge of you, but this is the first time they actually lay eyes on you. This is the first impression you make – and it’s damned important because people make up their minds very quickly. Not just about you as a person but also about your leadership potential, and based on their judgement they either open the door for you or slam it shut.

Your first impression

What can you do to make a great first impression as a person and especially as a leader?

For this topic I invited Sylvie di Giusto on my podcast show to talk about the image of leaders and about the first impression you give as a leader.

Sylvie di Guisto

Sylvie di Giusto

Sylvie has twenty years of corporate experience educating and inspiring thousands of clients around the world. She has become a recognized member of the international business community because she worked with and performed for more or less every kind of management and leaders from CEOs to young executives within all kind of industries.

She has long been fascinated by the power of image and the way people can use their personal brand to positively influence their own career.

Her Book: The Image of Leadership

She wrote the book “The image of leadership“.

It‘s the result of Sylvie‘s journey through two career paths: one in the field of human resources, the other one as a professional image consultant.

The title „The image of leadership“ reflects the reality that true leadership manifests itself in ways that are both seen and unseen.

Sylvie is an exceptional speaker, an effective trainer and an enthusiastic coach – and – as you will hear  in the podcast interview – she has a dog and she loves dogs. That’s something both of us have in common.

The inspiring quote

“If you don’t care about yourself, people don’t think that you have the ability to care of them.”

Sylvie di Guisto

Links for further information

• Website of Sylvie di Guisto
• Sylvies book: “The Image of Leadership”

The transcript of my interview with Sylvie di Giusto:

Bernd:

Sylvie, in your book The Image of Leadership, you emphasize that the first impression counts. So, to be precise when people meet someone for the first time, they judge him during the first seven seconds. That’s a very short time, seven seconds. So, what is it? What counts during these first seven seconds? What should we pay attention to in order to make a good first impression as a leader?

Sylvie:

That’s a fantastic question Bernd. And I want you to understand that the number itself, the seven really doesn’t matter, it doesn’t matter if it happens in one second, in seven seconds, in 10 seconds, I just chose one of the many studies that is out there.

Where there is proof that we make immediate decisions about each of us. And there are different studies, it happens in a blink of an eye and it has nothing to do if you’re a good human or a bad human, if you’re a good leader or a bad leader, it is simply brain performance. It is happening automatically and that is why we cannot stop it.

So, there is proof that in milliseconds or seven seconds our brain makes immediate decisions. For example, is somebody knowledgeable? Is somebody trustworthy? Is somebody reliable? Is somebody successful?

Those are all decisions we make in a blink of an eye and afterwards unfortunately something called confirming bias is working either against us or for us because our brain wants to be right. So, to answer your question, what is it exactly what we look for in those seconds, it’s something I call the A, B, C, D of your imprint. Very simple concept, A stands for your appearance. People look at you. How do you look like? What do I see in your visual appearance?

Bernd:

So, also what’s my wardrobe, what I – the clothes everything?

Sylvie:

Yes, everything. So much more than just your clothes, your body image, are you tall? Are you short? Are you overweight? Are you underweight?

Are you in shape or not? Does your body look healthy? Your accessories, your makeup, everything that we see. But to be very clear, looking good is not enough. It is great to look good but it is not enough because then the second one stands for your B for your behaviour. At one point you’re going to behave.

Your body language, your gestures, your posture, your attitude, how do you behave? And then there is the C for communication and it is what you say and how you say it. Your voice is a very powerful tool and it is important for you to understand that what you say plays a major role in how you start conversations. Last but not least, there is the D for digital footprint because most of nowadays, we make a first impression not in person anymore, we make it in some kind of digital way, via email, via social media for example.

Bernd:

So, even before someone knows me, if he Googles me or if he looked on LinkedIn then he see if that doesn’t fit to my behaviour or appearance then there is some kind of misfit, right?

Sylvie:

Yes. We know that every single day you have around 3,000 contact points, 3,000 times in average you get judged or you judge somebody else but most of those 3,000 contact points happen in the digital world because you send out an email days ago. You nowadays don’t even know where that email ends up because people could have forwarded it and forwarded it. And people make assumptions just based on what they read about you or what you post on social media.

You know your footprint travels and you leave a conscious footprint, the actions that you are aware of, but there is also an unconscious footprint, how often are you online? How many hours do you spend on Facebook? What do you like? Who likes your posts? So, there are things in-between the lines that people take into consideration when judging you.

Bernd:

And that’s not just to – if you are self-employed or if you want to be a speaker like the two of us but is especially also too if you’re an employed manager, people will judge you by that.

Sylvie:

Yes absolutely. In my trainings I show a lot of example where individuals thinking that they are in a private environment on the internet posted something and it had an impact on the company they have been working for, because other people they do not, you know they do not split up who is the – who is the private Bernd that I experience online and who is the corporate Bernd. For them, it’s just one person and they wonder, “What? Bernd is working for this company? What?”

So, I always compare it with politics. That politicians have campaign teams. Everybody in the campaign team will be impacted by the digital footprint of the politician and vice versa. If the politicians like we have a lot of examples ruined campaigns by posting something inappropriate, something unprofessional, the entire campaign team lost their job and everybody thought you were working for that politician and vice versa.

And the same is true for your company. You have a campaign team in your company too. Those are your colleagues, that includes your boss, that includes all employees who represent that corporate brand.

Bernd:

You described that very nicely with A, B, C, D. So, we just spoke about the digital footprint right now. I would like to focus more on the first A, on the appearance.

I understand that if I’m tall or if I’m small, is important but I also understand that my outfit is very important especially if that’s something I can change. So, if I want to make a different impression, I can change my outfit in a certain way. I mean but this – it depends on the situation but also on the industry we are in, what kind of things do people wear in that industry in certain situations. But in general, what kind of dress code should I follow as a leader? What are the goals and no goals if it comes to dress code?

Sylvie:

So, well, you started your question with in general and the challenge is there is no in general anymore. Years ago it was easy to say that everybody who went to work in a corporation had to wear a suit, period.

Bernd:

Right.

Sylvie:

But years ago, our world was not as open-minded, as diverse, as beautiful as it is nowadays. One size fits all formulas just don’t work anymore because we don’t have one size fits all leaders anymore. Right?

Bernd:

Right.

Sylvie:

They come in all different sizes and shapes, they come in all different colours and cultural backgrounds. So, there is no one size fits all formula and no typical dress code anymore. So, and when I work with leaders, I help them understand that they instead should look into three different areas. Area number one, what makes you feel comfortable?

Bernd:

Okay.

Sylvie:

You know?

Bernd:

Mm-hmm.

Sylvie:

Confidence is your best designer.

How would you like to represent yourself and it has nothing to do if you work in finance or if you work in IT. If you work in media or if you are a lawyer. What makes you the individual most comfortable? For some it’s a suit, for others it isn’t. You cannot only look into yourself because you are serving somebody else. Right?

Bernd:

Right.

Sylvie:

So, what makes your host feel comfortable? How can you wear something that doesn’t have an impact on your host, how he or she sees you?

Your host can be a meeting planner, your host can be a client that you visit. Right?

Your host is the other person across you. And how would they love you to be representing yourself and them? The central are the guests, others, audience members as a speaker for example. So, I would always work in that triangle and balance it out.

And for some, this could be a suit, for some this could be a suit without a tie, for some this could be a sports checkered with a pair of denims, for some women it could be a dress, for others it could be a jumpsuit, it, there is a variety but there is a solution for everybody. I simply believe that it is not good to dress up and to wear something just because an old-fashioned rule requires you to wear it.

Bernd:

Okay. But on the other side, I just think about situations where I said okay, I have nice clothes on. It’s jeans and very casual. Now I came to a meeting and everyone else has a tie on, a nice suit. I believe I would then feel uncomfortable and the other guys would look at me and say, “Well, what kind of guy is that? Doesn’t he know the dress code?”

Sylvie:

But then you didn’t do your homework.

Bernd:

Okay.

Sylvie:

Because then you didn’t follow those three principles. Even if you say for yourself jeans and a shirt is something that makes you feel comfortable-,

If you would have looked before what is your host going to wear, what are his or her guests are going to wear?

If you would have done your homework you would never have entered the situation this way.

So, I encourage people, do your homework and it is so easy nowadays. Go on their website, go on their social media profiles, research their hashtags and you’re going to see people, humans who are working for that company, right? You’re going to see them-,

Bernd:

Okay. Right.

Sylvie:

And it is easy for you to guess what they are going to wear and how you can show yourself some respect and to them by adjusting accordingly.

Bernd:

Ja. I remember 10 years ago when I was working for a company we had to do with a lot of paper mills for example.

And the problem was that you had one guy who was the managing director and he wears suit. So, when I went to that company, I always had two kind of suits with me. One suit or one wardrobe where I had tie, a suit, talking to the general manager and then I had to go to the operations, down to the blue collar workers and there I had different clothes.

So that if I work with the blue collar workers and I have a tie on, I am totally overdressed, they will not really talk with me.

Sylvie:

You are exactly following what I just explained to you. You did something that made you still feel okay. Right?

Bernd:

Right.

Sylvie:

But also something that doesn’t make your host or his or her guest which would be the employees at this point make feel uncomfortable. That’s exactly how you should do it.

Bernd:

I found a very interesting statement about you when I read a little bit about you in the internet, digital footprint.

Austrian by birth, French in her heart, Italian in her kitchen, German in her work ethic and American by choice. So, if I read that, I suppose you know all the cultures pretty well.

Sylvie:

I do. Which one is your favourite? Is it the Austrian by birth, the French or the Italian in the kitchen, the German or the American? Which one is your favourite?

Bernd:

The Italian in the kitchen is really cool. I love that. I suppose you know all of these cultures pretty well that’s why my question is, do you see a difference regarding how to dress if you’re in the United States or if you’re in Europe?

Sylvie:

Yes and no. That’s a very great question again but the reality is, so I live in the United States since 10 years now and you have to understand that traveling the United States and distance is a very different and similar on the other hand than in Europe. So, if I’m on the East Coast, I’m located in New York City and I only go on a plane for one hour, I enter a totally different world.

It’s like I’m on a different planet. Right?

Bernd:

Mm-hmm.

Sylvie:

I work from New York to South Dakota, to Florida, to California, to Nevada, to Utah, different planets.

But it’s just because our country here is so big that when I travel just for one hour I enter a different culture. So, but the same is kind of true for Europe. Right?

When you are in Germany and you enter a plane and you go somewhere for one hour, you probably you end up somewhere in France or Italy or a little bit longer you go to London and you will already see that there are differences. Right?

Bernd:

Right. Ja, that’s true.

Sylvie:

It’s not the same. So, there are cultural differences, the reality is just that you do the distances here in the United States and the variety of people we have living here and the different religious backgrounds and the different cultural backgrounds, it is like a flowerpot. And I wouldn’t know what I should compare with in Europe because we have the variety all here.

And of course, there is a difference between living in New York and dressing in New York where on the one hand, the rich and famous are and are willing to invest but on the other hand if you go on to the streets of New York, you will find such a variety of people with so many different styles which is the biggest challenge for corporations and leaders here.

Bernd:

Ja.

Sylvie:

Because there is no rule. You can do whatever you want in New York. And then you travel to Miami, where it in average it has 105 degrees so don’t talk with them about wearing a suit every single day at work because the temperatures are just different.

And then you travel to Utah, where we have Mormons living who have religious backgrounds and cultural statements to make that also impact their visual appearance. So, the – it is just the differences that the distances here, the variety of people we have living in the United States is so colourful so it’s difficult for me to compare them to Europe because you have nothing to compare [crosstalk]

Bernd:

Ja, I understand that. So, I think it is very similar when I compare that if I go to Italy, I have to adjust.

They are looking much more on a suit or some things like that like I would do here in Germany. People in general I would say Italian people for example are, were much better focused more on a good clothe than we are in Germany in general.

So, I think it’s very – so, it comes back to what you said, we need to be – we need to prepare before we meet someone and check out what’s the case, what should I wear regarding this? If I think about that, I would like to have your opinion on should a company have then some kind of official policies, some kind of written paper describing in detail then an expected dress code, doesn’t that make sense?

Sylvie:

Absolutely, for several reasons. And the first reason is people want to have guidelines. Employees do better if you give them a guideline, if they’re feeling there is a guideline that they can follow then you just let them out in the blue and don’t give them guidelines.

Second, we have many examples in America and probably also European organisations where they’re always on defined line of a discrimination case. To avoid those, it’s better to have written guidelines that make everybody aware that there are specific things that we cannot do because we would discriminate somebody based on his or her gender, based on his or her religion, based on his or her sexual orientation or whatever it is. So, that’s why they are so important.

The challenge though is that most companies choose in their guidelines to describe what is not allowed, what is not allowed. Right?

That’s what happens, very simple. Psychological brain performance going on. If I tell people what is not allowed, they immediately look for excuses. Right? They immediately look for an exception. What can I do? How far can I expect it?

Bernd:

Ja.

Sylvie:

I compared with the parking sign, if you tell people that you are not allowed to park here from Sunday 9:00 to 12:00 and from Saturday 4:00 to 8:00, they forgot about those hours, they just focus on all the other hours and what they could do to park there. Make sense?

Bernd:

Yeah. It makes sense to me. It’s similar like don’t think about a yellow elephant.

Sylvie:

Yes exactly. Yeah? So, and if I consult with companies, I recommend to them to the opposite because describe what is allowed.

Tell them what isn’t and everything that you don’t describe is just not allowed because you didn’t offer it to them. Right? So, tell them what they can do and everything else they just cannot do. So, if I’m with company that changed a little bit their mindset of using language and those policies that tells people what is okay to do and not what is not okay to do. An example, so, we had a case where it says it is not okay to have visible tattoos on the neck.

On the neck, but somebody in the hospitality industry and then one of the employees came back from a vacation and had a tattoo on his back of the neck. So, not at the front, on the back. Right? And it was a long discussion is this according to the policies or not? Can we do something? This is a discrimination case if you fire him. But it is very unclear because you just told them what they’re not allowed to do. So, I would rather give them the exact spots where we accept them and everything else is not allowed.

Bernd:

Okay. Ja, I understand. You have the A, B, C, D for the first impression. Let’s go over to B, the behaviour. How should someone behave for the first seven seconds to be accepted especially as a leader if you want to have this impression? What kind of behaviour would be also counterproductive. What should you avoid?

Sylvie:

So, I think one of the major things you can do to improve your behaviour is to have consistent behaviour. Consistent is key and consistently in your behaviour itself that people learn based on your behaviour who you are and what they can expect and don’t experience surprises but not consistent to the other elements, to the A and to the C and to the D.

Those are not tumbles that live independent of each other. You cannot appear as the best dressed person in the room and then behave like the least appropriate person in the room. Right?

You cannot look great online and look like a jerk offline. So, they are connected to each other so consistency in your A, B, C, D including your behaviour is a winning factor.

And when I describe behaviour for leaders, I always put the word respect to the forefront and respect in terms of respecting yourself. The most important person in your life, the most important person in your career, the most important person in your leadership is you, yourself and I, nobody else. Right?

So, show yourself a little bit of respect and show them also in the behaviour in the way you represent yourself. And then there are the others. Respect, show them respect in your behaviour by respecting that there are different genders, there is gender neutrality that there are different ages, different generations in front of you, different cultures, people with different dreams and beliefs and try to always be respectful.

Bernd:

Mm-hmm. That fits quite well in what I think about that. It makes sense for me.

Sylvie:

And counterproductive if you’re inauthentic. If you try to be somebody who you are not one of those people who very often criticised trainings and methods where we try to make something out of people that they are not, body language trainers are a very good example for me. Only a few body language trainer understands the art of really changing their body language so that it comes out naturally.

At most, if you cookie-cutter approach it and say, “You should stand on this feet and not on that feet, you should hold this in your hand and not this in your hand, you should move your arms this way and not this way. Even if that’s taught behaviour after a while, if it doesn’t come over authentic and something you would really naturally do with your body, everybody is going to experience that.

Bernd:

Ja. You feel uncomfortable and then the people see that.

It’s not, it doesn’t fit. I understand that. Regarding communication, what kind of mistakes can ruin there the first impression? I mean there are some people who have let’s say a very high voice and what can they do to still have a good first impression? What is your take on that?

Sylvie:

Well, it’s about how you said and what you said. Let’s start with how you say. Your voice as you said is a very powerful tool and most people do not know if they have a good voice or a voice that we enjoy listening or not. Most people don’t even know what they say or whether they – so if there’s one practical tip I can give you. At the next meeting you go in, I encourage you to use your mobile device and to just record yourself.

Bernd:

That’s cool.

Sylvie:

For one minute and then listen to the things that you said and how you said it and how your voice sounds compared to the other voices in the room. Is it too loud? Is it too silent? Is your voice somehow different? So, analyse your voice, around your voice coaches out there where you can record a short message you read something off their website and you send them this message and they give you feedback on your voice. So, don’t underestimate the power of your voice.

We know that the first eleven words in every single conversation are the most important ones.

People are going to remember you for the first eleven words that you say. So, in the United States, usually we start conversations with how are you doing? But in Germany people [GERMAN].

Bernd:

Ja.

Sylvie:

What? So, there is nothing wrong about asking somebody how they are doing but it’s also not the most impressive conversation starter that you can have.

Bernd:

Now I’m interested. How do you start it?

Sylvie:

Yeah.

Bernd:

How do you do it?

Sylvie:

So, I always start with something that is not average because how are you doing? Or [GERMAN] is average. That’s just average wording. Right?

Bernd:

Right, right.

Sylvie:

Start, do your homework, research the person, find out something about the person in front of you, the company they work for, read the press releases. Did they have a major success to celebrate the person in front of you will be so impressed if you immediately show with your words you did your homework, you are prepared.

Bernd:

Mm-hmm. It’s again like we had in the beginning, it’s always the preparation. You need to know-,

Sylvie:

Yes.

Bernd:

How to be behave.

Sylvie:

Preparation is key.

Bernd:

What kind of wardrobe, it’s so important. Ja?

I can understand that. That makes absolutely sense. Very good, I also like very much your tip that you just record yourself. There’s very often maybe one thing we need to add here, you always sound different like you think you hear yourself. That’s not a different point.

Sylvie:

No, it’s not.

Bernd:

It’s important what do you say? Are you too loud? Are you too – or are you too – not too loud? These kinds of things are important right?

Sylvie:

Mm-hmm. And keep in mind there are average meetings maybe you are at a meeting where you shouldn’t record because otherwise you could get in trouble when you record it but then it would also be as a leader at an organisation where we oftenly do presentations, here you can take it even to the next level, something I do with every single speech I give, even after being eight years in that business every single time I have a little Canon camera.

It doesn’t matter that it’s Canon, it just matters that it’s small. I put it in the back of the room, the sound quality is not the best, the video quality is not the best but I put it in the back of the room and I record myself presenting the entire session.

On the way home, I go through a very painful process most of the time. The first time I watched a video without sound, I just focused on the visual.

And you’re going to find things that your body does you had no idea, it’s hilarious.

It’s painful very often when you see specific gestures or postures or how you stand or how you walk or that you walk all the time or you know you had your hands. So, if you just can focus on the visuals, it’s amazing what you’re going to find.

Then on the second step I turn off the video and do the audio. Then I just listen, I have the missing element of visuals and I just listen. How would somebody experience that in the room who couldn’t see me?

When did I pause? When did I use a loud voice? When did I get more quiet? Right? And then the third step if you’re a really brave human being and I’m not always this brave, you take that audio and send it to a friend.

Bernd:

Okay.

Sylvie:

Somebody who was not in the room and say, “Can you give me feedback on that?” So, somebody who didn’t experience the atmosphere in the room.

And if you have that 360 degree view, you’re going to learn so many things about yourself and the way you present yourself. And from there you can just get better and start improving.

Bernd:

Ja. I think that’s a very great tip to do that. Also as you said, it is tough especially if you do it the first time. I remember that I’ve done things like that as well and you feel sometimes so embarrassed from yourself by yourself that you don’t – you have a totally different view on yourself and if you see the reality sometimes it’s very hard. But I think it’s the only way how you really can improve if you do it like that.

Sylvie:

Yes.

Bernd:

Coming to the end of our interview, I would like to ask you one last question.

Some people they don’t care so much about their first impression, they wear a sloppy outfit or they communicate purely but they will tell you then they don’t care really and they say they want to be authentic and it’s authentic that they have a sloppy outfit and they think that the inner values count and you know long-term, not the first impression, what’s your answer to that?

Sylvie:

Well, so, there are two types of people out there who say things like that. The first one, the first group they really don’t care.

Say, “I don’t care.” Well, if that’s your authentic you, then go for it and let’s see how far it’s going to go.

Bernd:

How far do you come.

Sylvie:

Go, go for it, give it a try.

If a sloppy person is your authentic you then go for it. I can’t help you. But the other thing that I can tell you is there is a very simple leadership principle and that is that if you do not care about yourself, people do not think that you have the ability to care of them.

So, when I work with leaders or especially with politicians, we always start with them. If you’re a politician if you do not care for yourself first, voters do not think you have the ability to take care of them. Very simple.

Bernd:

That makes sense. Ja.

Sylvie:

So, if that is your authentic you, go for it. Run for it as far as you can. But then there is the second group, and very often people mix them in not realising that the second group does it on purpose. But the second group, they don’t care anymore, they don’t have to care anymore because they earned that look. I give you a few examples. When you read my book, The Image of Leadership, you might have noticed that Jeffrey Hayzlett wrote the forward.

Bernd:

Right.

Sylvie:

Jeffrey Hayzlett, we call him the cowboy of the boardrooms. He walks into the most powerful boardrooms in the entire world wearing a cowboy hat, jeans, cowboy boots. He has this rough and tough voice, he curses and he acts like he doesn’t care.

The reality is he earned that look over the years. He didn’t always look like this. He earned it. He made it his look, his brand, everything is authentic because he combined his appearance with his behaviour, with his communication, you will see him online everywhere this way. He’s one of the nicest guys that I know if you know him. Right?

But it is part of his story and he earns it because he deserves it. Another example, Mark Zuckerberg.

As long as you didn’t invent a multibillion dollar company in your garage, you do not have the right to wear flip-flops at work. You do not have the right to wear a hoodie at work.

And by the way, we see Mark Zuckerberg more often in a suit than you see him in a hoodie because whenever Mark Zuckerberg needs money, he thinks a suit is a very good idea. Or Steve Jobs is another example that you know he created that uniform being a pair of jeans and a black turtle neck because he was such a creative mind and didn’t have the time to care about his appearance.

I can tell you, I can tell you that those black turtle necks are handmade custom-made $800 a piece.

That doesn’t sound to me like somebody who doesn’t care.

Bernd:

That’s true.

Sylvie:

So, be very careful between those who really don’t care, group number one, right? Go for it, let them run, you can’t help. We’re going to see how far they come and the second group that doesn’t have to care anymore or that make it part of their brand that they care about themselves in a different way that looks very casual to us because same is true for Jeffrey. Those are a handmade cowboy boots, his sports jackets are custom-made, he’s wearing the most expensive accessories and the general viewer only sees the cowboy but we see what he invests to create that look and brand.

Bernd:

Sylvie, that was very interesting for me to hear that. And it was a pleasure to talk with you about the image of leaders and especially how important it is to have this consistency also already in the first seven seconds and the preparation before you meet someone the first time. So, thank you very much for that great talk. Thank you.

Sylvie:

Thank you very much Bernd for having me. I truly appreciate you.